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 Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?

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Zkillerthriller
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PostSubject: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:12 pm

So, tiers in Yugioh is essentially something that decks get "placed" in depending on how good and popular they are. But the tiers themselves don't really affect the game - but what if they did?

An example of something that tiers have really improved is the competitive Wi-Fi battling in Pokemon. Yes, Pokemon also has a competitive scene, outside the cardgame, and I'd say it's even more popular than Yugioh. I play Pokemon competitively on Pokemon Showdown from time to time, myself.

But anyways, how does their tiers work and how have they improved the game?

How the tiers work and how they improved the game:

There are 4-6 main tiers - NU, RU, UU and OU. The 2 remaining are PU and Uber, which are not as competitive as the 4 others I mentioned.

NU means "neverused", meaning Pokemon in that tier are not used often.

RU means "rarelyused", meaning the Pokemon in that tier are used, but rarely.

UU means "underused, meaning the Pokemon in that tier are used a decent amount, but not too much.

OU means "overused", meaning the Pokemon in that tier are used alot. OU is also the most competitive and popular tier, but the others are also popular, just a bit less.

Pokemon cannot be used in a tier that's lower than the one they're in. For example, you cannot use an OU Pokemon in UU, and a UU Pokemon in RU. However, you can use a RU Pokemon in UU and a UU Pokemon in OU, get it? Good!

It improved the game because the tiers allowed almost all Pokemon to be good in their respective tier. For example, Torterra wouldn't stand a chance among all of the OU Pokemon, but it's really good in PU! The tiers simply give "bad" Pokemon a chance to be good!

Who created the tiers, though? Well, you see, back in 2004, a group of friends who loved Pokemon went together and created Smogon - a Pokemon forum tailored towards competitive Pokemon battling! With this, they eventually made tiers, which are based of usage. They quickly growed into the most popular Pokemon forum out there. So if you didn't realise it already, the tiers we're created by the community, so it's not official!

All this got me thinking: "Why can't we Yugioh players do the same?". I mean, I love my X-Sabers, but unfortunately they don't really stand a chance against a powerful deck like Nekroz. But I'm sure they'd do great in a tier with decks that are less good.

First we could start of by determining how good a certain deck is, and place it in a tier based on it (as a start). We could tier archetypes instead of individual cards, but if a card is noticably too broken we could perhaps put just that one card in the Uber tier. Then we could start telling people on DN! Or posting a topic about it on their forums! DN could be the new Pokemon Showdown, but for Yugioh. We could keep spreading the word! This might just be what saves the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:44 pm

ok we gotta think though how a deck like my crystal's which stand up to the meta for me, but for other builds they get shut down instantly, we need to consider every different build for a deck.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:52 pm

@Nero Kaze wrote:
ok we gotta think though how a deck like my crystal's which stand up to the meta for me, but for other builds they get shut down instantly, we need to consider every different build for a deck.


This entirely. When we look at the tier list, we have something similar to it in the form of the banlist. Smogon doesn't ban certain teams (bar Baton Pass), they ban certain pokemon, similar to how Konami bans or limits certain cards. We could never ban a certain deck, due to a huge number of potential hybrids and variants that would be possible. In the end, the banlist is probably the closest we'll ever get to a proper tier list.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:05 pm

pokemon for the most part are the same 1 pikachu is almost the exact same as another minus the move list MAYBE and the stats will be close to the same, we cant say that all decks will be that close though cus look at my crystal beast deck and look at Val's they are COMPLETELY different
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:53 am

@Valkoor wrote:
@Nero Kaze wrote:
ok we gotta think though how a deck like my crystal's which stand up to the meta for me, but for other builds they get shut down instantly, we need to consider every different build for a deck.


This entirely. When we look at the tier list, we have something similar to it in the form of the banlist. Smogon doesn't ban certain teams (bar Baton Pass), they ban certain pokemon, similar to how Konami bans or limits certain cards. We could never ban a certain deck, due to a huge number of potential hybrids and variants that would be possible. In the end, the banlist is probably the closest we'll ever get to a proper tier list.

But it's not near a tier list. They just purely change it in a way which will grant them more money.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:10 am

@Zkillerthriller wrote:
But it's not near a tier list. They just purely change it in a way which will grant them more money.  

Except that isn't the point. Of course Konami does it in part to make money; we all know that. The point is that even if the fan base took over regulating the competitive scene, the banlist would still be the closest to a tier list we would have; just it would no longer have any influence due to business. The flaw in your idea remains that hundreds of hybrids, variants, and smaller combos exist in the game, unlike Pokemon, where a Pokemon can single-handedly be broken much more evidently and easily.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:19 am

@Valkoor wrote:
@Zkillerthriller wrote:
But it's not near a tier list. They just purely change it in a way which will grant them more money.  

Except that isn't the point. Of course Konami does it in part to make money; we all know that. The point is that even if the fan base took over regulating the competitive scene, the banlist would still be the closest to a tier list we would have; just it would no longer have any influence due to business. The flaw in your idea remains that hundreds of hybrids, variants, and smaller combos exist in the game, unlike Pokemon, where a Pokemon can single-handedly be broken much more evidently and easily.

Dude, I already explained that we'd tier archetypes rather than individual cards. But if a card is obviously broken we'd put it in a high tier. And, I mean, we'd still go by the konami banlist, just with our own tiers.

God, you're only pointing out the negative. Lighten up.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:26 am

@Zkillerthriller wrote:
Dude, I already explained that we'd tier archetypes rather than individual cards. But if a card is obviously broken we'd put it in a high tier. And, I mean, we'd still go by the konami banlist, just with  our own tiers.

God, you're only pointing out the negative. Lighten up.

And I keep explaining that there are so many issues with that. What if we were to hybrid an archetype? Could I run SHAT (Shaddoll Hand Artifact Traptrix) even if Shaddolls were in a higher tier than HAT, or would all decks that used any elements of Shaddolls be rendered null and void? And even then, don't tell me that most the hybrids and variants are still tier 1 material. We all know that most tier 2 and 3 decks could easily stand up to Shaddoll Frogs or something. There are way too many complications due to the hundreds of variants that could be made to even really consider anything other than a card by card banlist.

Also, what's wrong with looking on the negative? If it's an idea with flaws in it, and you're asking for opinions, then of course I'm going to give the negatives. IT would be nice if this idea could work, it just has too many negatives.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:28 am

@Valkoor wrote:
@Zkillerthriller wrote:
Dude, I already explained that we'd tier archetypes rather than individual cards. But if a card is obviously broken we'd put it in a high tier. And, I mean, we'd still go by the konami banlist, just with  our own tiers.

God, you're only pointing out the negative. Lighten up.

And I keep explaining that there are so many issues with that. What if we were to hybrid an archetype? Could I run SHAT (Shaddoll Hand Artifact Traptrix) even if Shaddolls were in a higher tier than HAT, or would all decks that used any elements of Shaddolls be rendered null and void? And even then, don't tell me that most the hybrids and variants are still tier 1 material. We all know that most tier 2 and 3 decks could easily stand up to Shaddoll Frogs or something. There are way too many complications due to the hundreds of variants that could be made to even really consider anything other than a card by card banlist.

Also, what's wrong with looking on the negative? If it's an idea with flaws in it, and you're asking for opinions, then of course I'm going to give the negatives. IT would be nice if this idea could work, it just has too many negatives.

Alright, you're right. That's a problem. But if you're gonna point it out, atleast try coming up with a solution. I won't be able to do this all by myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:20 pm

@Zkillerthriller wrote:
Alright, you're right. That's a problem. But if you're gonna point it out, atleast try coming up with a solution. I won't be able to do this all by myself.

The issue is there isn't really a solution. The only one would either be to make people stop using hybrids or consider every hybrid in he game, which is pretty near impossible either way. I just genuinely think for a card game like YGO, the banlist we have is the best solution.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:47 pm

@Valkoor wrote:
@Zkillerthriller wrote:
Alright, you're right. That's a problem. But if you're gonna point it out, atleast try coming up with a solution. I won't be able to do this all by myself.

The issue is there isn't really a solution. The only one would either be to make people stop using hybrids or consider every hybrid in he game, which is pretty near impossible either way. I just genuinely think for a card game like YGO, the banlist we have is the best solution.

Okay, how about we tier perticular decks instead of archetypes?
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:58 pm

@Zkillerthriller wrote:
Okay, how about we tier perticular decks instead of archetypes?

This also raises problems. Let's look at say, all the variants of Dragon Rulers that existed around their prime:

Rulers
Disaster Dragon
Dragunity Rulers
Hieratic Rulers
Plant Rulers
etc...

Every deck, I guarantee you, has multiple variants that all have varying degrees of success, so we'd be tiering thousands of decks. Note that even past this, there are even more hybrids and play style variations. It just wouldn't work on a scale that encompasses what you plan.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:12 pm

@Valkoor wrote:
@Zkillerthriller wrote:
Okay, how about we tier perticular decks instead of archetypes?

This also raises problems. Let's look at say, all the variants of Dragon Rulers that existed around their prime:

Rulers
Disaster Dragon
Dragunity Rulers
Hieratic Rulers
Plant Rulers
etc...

Every deck, I guarantee you, has multiple variants that all have varying degrees of success, so we'd be tiering thousands of decks. Note that even past this, there are even more hybrids and play style variations. It just wouldn't work on a scale that encompasses what you plan.

You know another way of making old decks useable again?
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:14 pm

@Zkillerthriller wrote:
You know another way of making old decks useable again?

Do exactly what I said we would do if the fan base had control, and make an actually good banlist that targets good decks instead of being a cash cow?...
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:21 pm

@Valkoor wrote:
@Zkillerthriller wrote:
You know another way of making old decks useable again?

Do exactly what I said we would do if the fan base had control, and make an actually good banlist that targets good decks instead of being a cash cow?...

I mean, how does that make old decks better?
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm

@Zkillerthriller wrote:
I mean, how does that make old decks better?

Well, your tier list idea doesn't make them "better" either. It just puts them in an environment where they can compete. A leas with a fair banlist, we can hit decks to a point where most, if not all, decks are on something of an even footing.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:26 pm

@Valkoor wrote:
@Zkillerthriller wrote:
I mean, how does that make old decks better?

Well, your tier list idea doesn't make them "better" either. It just puts them in an environment where they can compete. A leas with a fair banlist, we can hit decks to a point where most, if not all, decks are on something of an even footing.

I really like that idea, and I think I get it! =D
So, where do we begin? T_T
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:30 pm

@Zkillerthriller wrote:
I really like that idea, and I think I get it! =D
So, where do we begin? T_T

In my opinion, if you really want to try, make another post asking for banlist opinions, and have a proper discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:31 pm

Hmm, can't they just discuss it here? Seems a bit pointless in making an entirely new topic about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:04 pm

@Zkillerthriller wrote:
Hmm, can't they just discuss it here? Seems a bit pointless in making an entirely new topic about it.

I'm just saying remake it so there's no confusion and so you can potentially put some new ideas or suggestions in the OP.
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PostSubject: Re: Yugioh Tiers Implemented Into the Actual Game?   Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:24 pm

One problem i see with this is that it would actually take the yugioh community to work together :I
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